Here are some of the typical emails and letters that were sent to Stephanie by her (now ex) pastor. This is the very kind of thing that is laid upon victims by their churches. I will just post a few here and more in a subsequent post, including the formal letter of ex-communication. I will be very interested in everyone’s comments in response to what this “pastor” says in these communications to Stephanie:
Good morning, I know you are still emotional hurt and upset but It is vitally important that [Pastor’s wife] and I meet with you without [abuser] asap. I saw your messages and there is no biblical grounds for divorce by either one of you at this point. As your Pastor, I’m duty bound to warn you that to do so at this point would be a grave SIN against God. I do agree that sometime apart for both of you to get counseling would be wise but that is totally different than divorce. I have been counseling with [abuser] and the Lord seems to be doing some amazing work upon his heart. Please let me know the earliest you are able to meet.
This next one is rather long, and in fact does not include the second half in which the pastor cites scriptures to forbid Stephanie from divorcing her abuser. But here is enough to handle for now. Wicked. It is like reading a letter from the devil:
Good evening Stephanie,
I apologize for taking so long to respond to your email, but I have been praying about the best and most gracious way to respond to your last couple of emails. I will start off by saying that [his wife] and I do not cease to pray for you and your husband. I know this has been a very difficult time for both of you. Also, I want to assure you that your marriage problems over the last 36 months are not unique because when two sinners say “I do” these things are inevitable. I pray that the Lord would grant you eyes to see that he has allowed these struggles to build your marriage and to make you and your husband more like Christ in the process (Rom 8:28,29).
For clarification, I don’t have the authority to refuse to accept your resignation. The church has refused your letter of resignation because they are following the procedure prescribed in section 4 of our church constitution which states that we cannot accept a letter of resignation from a person that is under church discipline or a candidate for church discipline. I have attached a copy of the church’s constitution and covenant for you to review. Also, I have attached a copy of the minutes from the last church business meeting where the church unanimously voted to place you under the corrective discipline of suspension of privileges which included public reproof (2Thess 3:14,15).
There were a few reasons why the church voted in this matter. First, they viewed your refusal to continue to meet for counseling as disorderly conduct and rebellion against the God ordained authority of your Pastor (Heb 13:17). Secondly, your adamant pursuit of divorce without biblical grounds. Thirdly, you have not attended church since October of last year which violates section 3(a) of the church constitution which you agreed to follow when you joined the church. I have attached a copy of all of our correspondence- including all texts and emails generated over the past several months. It will be evident from these correspondences that you have refused to meet with me after the first meeting that we had in October of last year. After several attempts to have a second meeting, you finally agreed to it if you could have a third-party counselor in attendance.
I think even you would agree, after going through our biblical counseling training at the church, that two initial discovery meetings which were a month apart hardly constitutes an exhaustive effort to save your marriage. It also would not be fair to say that you tried biblical counseling and it wasn’t successful. If you can recall, you confessed to your husband at our second meeting that you left him the second time within 48 hours after our first meeting because you sinfully distrusted his word to work on improving the conditions of your house. You also asked him for forgiveness for this confessed sin against him, which he granted to you before us all.
Contrary to what you think, the issues you brought up at our initial meeting was taken seriously. I just made the statement in our initial meeting that your issues could have been dealt with in a wiser way. For example, long before you decided to leave home you should’ve come to me as your Pastor and not your mother if there had been an issue going on with your husband. Your mother has no authority over your husband, but I do as your husband’s Pastor. I would have been able to hold him accountable as I have done since our initial meeting in October.
Additionally, the emails you have been sending out to the church insinuate that your husband has not received any rebuke or correction for his behavior which is far from the truth. He is currently under going biblical counselling and has repeatedly stated that he wants to save the marriage and do improvements to the house. Also, you have already received the minutes from our first church business meeting which described how he openly confessed his sins before the entire church. In case you have forgotten them, I have provided the vows that you both made before God in a place full of witnesses. You vowed before God “to take, [abuser], to be your lawfully wedded husband, to have and to hold from that day forward, for BETTER or WORSE, till death do you part….” If you notice the vow doesn’t say until he breaks his vow (or has bad communication skills, or refuses to clean the yard, fix the house in a timely manner, etc.) but “until death do you part”. Let me be clear- I have never condoned any wrong doing that your husband may have engaged in since you have been married. However, I must emphasize that you and [abuser] both have a vow and duty before God that isn’t contingent upon whether either of you are fulfilling your duties towards one another (Eph 5:22-33). Also, everyone who was a witness to these vows are duty bound to exhort you both to keep them.
In addition, the church has voted to place you under church discipline, but you are not excommunicated. Stephanie, we still consider you a beloved sister and we are prayerfully carrying out this process in hopes that the Lord would powerfully grant you reconciliation to himself and your Husband. It is vital for you to understand that Christ has given the keys of the kingdom to his church (Matt 16:19 / Matt 18:18) and when the church executes discipline on the behalf of Christ he is in the midst (Matt 18:20). This means that when the church executes discipline it is as if Christ himself was carrying it out. This is a most solemn thing to come under the corrective discipline of the Lord Jesus who is the King of Kings. Therefore, we are praying earnestly that He would grant you repentance and that you would turn from your pursuit of this ungodly, unbiblical divorce. In addition, we remain steadfast in hope that you would commit to receive biblical counseling and decide to persevere and work on restoring your marriage. The biblical counselor you selected to counsel you agrees with me and we both continue in prayer, hoping that our past few months of encouragement, confrontation, and reproofs would bear fruit and that Godly trust would be restored all around.
Lastly, regarding your last email containing a blog post titled “Thomas Cranmer on Divorce for Abuse.” I’m not sure how this is relevant to your situation because you admitted before a room of witnesses that your husband had never physically abused you and that you only felt unsafe because he put up a gate door after you left the house and that he said that you all should take a break from your parents. Also, this statement was made after your mother came to your house after midnight and refused to leave and then returned the next morning prompting your husband to call the Sheriff to have her removed. However, I would encourage you to do a little research on Thomas Cranmer before you lean upon his advice on marriage. He was credited for helping Henry VIII build a case so he could get out of his marriage to Catherine Aragon in order to marry his mistress. He also supported the principle of Royal Supremacy which gave the King legal sovereignty over the Church of England. I think a more trusted source to lean to regarding biblical grounds for divorce would be King Jesus the Christ and the Apostle Paul which I have provided there view below for you to review. You will notice that there is nothing remotely close to allowing divorce based on verbal abuse or home improvements. One would have to beat, twist, torture, and distort the scripture to get something like this from these passages. The Holy Spirit will not lead you in a direction that would contradict the plain teaching of scripture. The Apostle Paul mentions in (1Timothy 5:8) that if a man provides not for those of his household, he is worse than an unbeliever. However, in this context this passage has absolutely nothing to do with giving grounds for divorce but only exhorting adult children to take care of their widowed parents. He even tells the believers at Corinth (1Cor 7) to remain married to their unbelieving spouse if they are pleased to dwell with them. I pray you will receive this email for what it is which is Love in deed (action) and not word only.
So there it is. How can a man like this, parading as a pastor, be considered anything other than a wolf lording his false authority over Christ’s flock? As you can see from his words here, he is really presenting himself as a pope, essentially a “vicar of Christ.” If anyone disobeys him, they are guilty of disobeying Christ and on their way to hell.
no one down here
Way too much here.
1) the husband is promising to work on repairing the house? that’s nice. words are cheap. let’s see him actually do it.
2) Stephanie should not have had to ask forgiveness for not trusting the word of a liar. This was spiritual abuse in the first place …
3) the “pastor” would have been able to hold this guy accountable as he is currently doing? and how is this guy being held accountable? none of the promises of fixing the house are being taken care of… the gambling hasn’t stopped. the lies haven’t stopped. how is this holding someone accountable?
4) that “pastor” is equating HIS word to be the same as Christ’s word??? (in the discipline thing) What great humility he is showing. Sounds more like a catholic pope to me.
5) it is inevitable that a man will abuse his wife after he gets married? really? Sure, it’s inevitable that she will do something that irritates him, and he will irritate her… one or both will snore. someone will throw clothes on the floor instead of in the hamper. someone is going to get mad now and then… Dinner will be served late on occasion, and there will be an argument about who forgot to turn the light off. It should not be inevitable that the man is going to refuse the wife adequate housing. should not be inevitable that the man is going to refuse to let her see her mother. Should not be inevitable that the man is going to gamble away all the finances and then blame her… No, “Pastor,” this is not inevitable.
6) yes, we are supposed to remain with an unbelieving spouse if the spouse is pleased to dwell with you. So when the actions and words of the spouse tell you that he is not pleased to dwell with you… pretty sure you’re free…
7) misquoting Scripture… that’s so good. When the church exercises discipline, Christ is in the midst of that??! Christ is in the midst of two or three believers when they gather together. Christ does not sponsor misuse of his children.
8) After you leave the church … you are no longer bound by their little covenant. So none of the church has basic logic??
I could write a very long comment but I believe your past blog posts have addressed all the issues with this response. This makes me so ANGRY to read because so many women have been treated this way by the church. I thank God for my church and it’s leaders. This is very triggering. You are right. It is a letter from the devil, using scripture to further confuse and abuse.
I just want to share that I have avoided following this particular series because I already had a pretty good idea what kinds of legalistic nonsense that has been heaped upon that poor woman and feared I wouldn’t be able to emotionally handle it.
I finally decided to read this segment and found my heart pounding and my mind seemingly ready to explode and a wave of nausea coming over me as I took in the horrific (yet typical) things that poor Stephanie endured at the hands of those in her church, those who should have been willing to help and protect her. Just as appalling is recognizing how often that same kind of scenario is played out every day, and I cringe to think how many women and children continue to suffer while being simultaneously condemned for daring to protect themselves, whether emotionally, spiritually or physically.
Surely our Lord’s heart breaks.
So, once again, Pastor Crippen, thank you for shining a light on this painful reality. We know the problem will never be addressed as long as the body of Christ fails to acknowledge it even exists. If Stephanie’s story doesn’t powerfully impact hearts and minds, I can’t imagine what will.
Thank you Cindy. Yes it is a plague. My assumption of years ago about churches and pastors has been forever changed.
I Woke Up
To be honest, it took an hour or so to collect myself to even be able to sit down and read this. Now that I have started, I cannot finish. My mind is spinning, anxiety is rearing its ugly head, and I just cannot finish it yet. It’s truly heart-wrenching for me, and I’m sure others who’ve been through similar scenarios, to read this stuff. Maybe it’s some form of PTSD, because I’m immediately taken back to the words my former farce of a pastor sent me. Even though I saved them, I just can’t reread them.
This ignorant pharisee here that Stephanie put her trust in is a representative of SO MANY men that lead churches. He is scraping the bottom of the barrel with his threats. There’s so much to be said about the above, but all I can really say now is that it’s mind-blowing to think about the thousands of people who’ve been subject to abuse upon abuse, first the spouse, then the church, over the centuries. The ramifications of it all on women, families, and Jesus’s church are sickening!
Thank you, God, for using Jeff Crippen to begin to bring this evil to light and to bring us women out of the shadows and give us a soft place to land and a voice.
I Woke Up- i understand your reaction perfectly. This stuff really sets me off too and the things you said here about churches and pastors is very true.
“It is vital for you to understand that Christ has given the keys of the kingdom to his church (Matt 16:19 / Matt 18:18) and when the church executes discipline on the behalf of Christ he is in the midst (Matt 18:20). This means that when the church executes discipline it is as if Christ himself was carrying it out.“.
His Church. The body of all believers, not a building. His Church, sir. The one He died for and is in all authority over, not you. The one He has provided an unending supply of grace and mercy for. The Jesus who did not condemn the world but came to save it. The Messiah who loved the woman caught in adultery and freed her from men like you. I don’t believe this pastor/wife team know that Jesus. And I hope he pays close attention to His words, because Christ will surely hold him to them and discipline him as he batters Christ’s sheep.
So, is this a Presbyterian Church? A CPC by chance? All I hear is the self edifying and self glorifying misinterpretation of God’s Word, and I hear no wisdom, mercy, grace or love. I hear “you do what WE say, or God will discontinue His relationship and promises to you”. What a lie from the pit of hell.
He also should actually study the words “pleased to dwell”, because that actually means that the unbeliever is upholding his covenant and treating his wife like she should be treated and cared for and living in peace with her, none of which this man was doing. Paul’s provision is that if her husband is not giving her a place and home of peace, then she is free to leave because we have been called to peace, as believers.
It’s so sad to see how the institutionalized church has publicly lowered the true church to this kind of spiritual and controlling abuse. No wonder the world is not interested in “Church”. Not even true believers are interested in this kind of false dwelling.
And his use of the term “disorderly conduct” seems to be taken straight from the criminal law books.
I do wish these Pharisees would realize they do not know God and that by applying the law instead of grace and living and trusting in the law, they have fallen from grace. Glad she is free from all of that false religion.
Thx I am – it is a reformed baptist church.
The pastor’s views seem to me to be saying that abuse is more important than love. There isn’t one thing that is loving in his tone, not even the “beloved sister” part, as that sounds like another form of entrapment: you are part of our family and can’t escape! To me it seems that the pastor has also come under the influence of the abuser and is being coerced and controlled by him, and abusers are extremely skilled at this, though that in no way excuses the pastor.
RachAeljenna- nailed it. Exactly.
I am so grateful Stephanie is divorced and free now! I thought I might have a go at analyzing to the best of my ability some of the behaviours, bad theology and logical fallacies of the main perpetrators in Stephanie’s sad story. I I’m not a logic expert and I’m certainly not a theologian and I had to look a lot of things up. But I thought I’d have a go at analyzing Terrence’s and the pastor’s actions and statements.
Terrence’s rap sheet:
Controlled Stephanie’s freedoms. Ever increasing rules over time.
Pattern of lying and even bragging about it.
Hiding financial information.
Family home uninhabitable; promised repairs not kept for years.
Progressively isolating his wife Stephanie over time with future isolations announced. Restrictions of access to music, celebrations, pest control, phone, vehicle, bank account and even to exit the property — future gate to their remote property was announced.
Terrence’s reviling observed even in counselling sessions.
False accusation of Stephanie “lying about everything.”
Adultery — went on cruise with girlfriend.
Talking over her in counselling session.
Destruction of Stephanie’s property.
Ruining Stephanie financially.
Pastor’s rap sheet:
Willfully blind to Terrence’s abuse; lack of rightful empathy for victim. [Avoiding the Issue Fallacy]
Characterizing the living conditions as a “household budget issue” regarding lack of follow through on vermin-infested home and junk-filled property with picture evidence no less, and promise of washer dryer. For. Three. Years. [Minimization]
Commanded Stephanie to go home to her [arguably-non] husband. This pastor does the same things as Terrence! [Abusive control]
Believed Terrence’s lies about the girlfriend he took on the cruise. [Avoiding the Issue.]
Failure to acknowledge Terrence’s reviling/railing as abuse even as he did it before the pastor’s very eyes! The other counsellor in the room saw it for what it was: verbal/emotional abuse and belittlement. [Avoiding the Issue.]
Excuse after excuse for Terrence’s behaviour. [Rationalization Fallacy]
Insistence on binding Stephanie to the abusive relationship. [Bad theology.]
“That [potentially entrapping] future gate doesn’t bother you does it?” [Minimization, that is, : denial coupled with rationalization in situations where complete denial is implausible. The opposite of exaggeration.]
Controlling who Stephanie could and could not talk to. Same as the husband! [Now I’m worried about the pastor’s wife!]
Manipulation to subsequently create plausible deniability. “Oh we can’t remove you from membership because you are under discipline.” That they launched AFTER Stephanie’s resignation which IS allowed no questions asked, in order to continue to control Stephanie.
Falsely insisting Stephanie does not have grounds. [Bad theology.]
“Unbiblical divorce.” [Bad theology.]
“Divorce is a sin against God.” [Appeal to Heaven Fallacy.]
Lying about the progress he sees in Terrence. He must have some rose-coloured glasses!
“We never cease to pray for you.” [False piety.]
“[Abuse]…is inevitable in marriage.” [Stipulative Definition Fallacy.]
“God has allowed these struggles to make you and your husband more like Christ.” [Bad theology. There is no meritorious suffering in marriage. Further, you can’t make an evil person (the husband, as shown by his obvious bad fruit) more like Christ.]
“You sinfully distrusted your husband’s promise to work on living conditions. Shame on you for going to your mother instead of me! Your husband has confessed his sins before the whole church, doesn’t that break your heart?” [Appeal to Shame Fallacy.]
“YOUR vow is unbreakable and binding even if your husband breaks his. [Haha you are stuck]. [Bad theology.]
Referring to “[Terrence’s]…bad communication skills, refusal to clean yard” [Minimization.]
“We are praying earnestly that you repent of this ungodly divorce.” [More false piety and Stipulative Definition Fallacy.]
“I must emphasize..” [Fallacy of Accent/a.k.a. Fallacy of Emphasis.]
Sheriff’s visit painted as all Stephanie’s mother’s fault, when the sheriff insisted on seeing Stephanie despite Terrence’s belligerence; the sheriff, seeing the living conditions, told Stephanie’s mom to report the house to the county. [Mischaracterization — lying by omission]
Thomas Cranmer’s article dissed [in favour of more biblicism] from “king Jesus the Christ” [Appeal to Heaven Fallacy].
Grounds for divorce on the basis of non physical abuse, “..Not allowed! You would have to beat, twist, torture, and distort the scripture to get something like this.” [Proof by Assertion Fallacy (proposition is repeatedly stated.)]
Discipline for refusing to meet with the pharisees. And for submitting to unlawful rule. [Appeal to Authority Fallacy]
Thank you Alison!! Great job. Man, this evil really fries me every time I read it over again. And THIS wickedness is playing out in churches everywhere everyday.
no one down here
what alison said.
Allison thank you for breaking it all down step by step.
I’m still in a fog by the pastors spiritual sounding language in the letter. I think if that letter was written to me I would have crumbled into a heap on the floor unable to know where to begin in how to defend myself or even know what hit me. I would have been devastated. Since I’m not a theologian or apologist I would not know how to defend myself or anyone against the authors scripture references and rebuttals.
The use of scripture and doctrine to minimize her concerns and justify the abusive husband is so confusing to me. And the spiritual words the pastor used!!! The scriptures! The use of scripture, church procedure, the supposed help and support that was referred to in the letter regarding the pastor and his wife, counseling given, minimization, justification etc. All of the husbands sins negated by his supposed “trying to make it work” fake persona. This is what abusers do —they twist and confuse things. They use a lot of words.
The pastor siding with the husband and minimizing the gate and every abuse and concern the husband dished out. Minimizing to make the woman take the blame. And his lack of response to the girlfriend and the cruise!! Unbelievable!! The abuser gets off scot free by minimizing and faking repentance and pastor Believes the fake repentance!
I’ve read just about every blog post of Pastor Crippen and I’ve internalized and processed them in light of my own experience but I gotta tell ya I’m struggling with how I Process this letter.
The most confusing part to me is the pastor couched it all in spiritual language to defend his stance using scripture, doctrine and church history. All of which I would need Pastor Crippens help in responding to. Pastor Crippen would have to help me see thru the twisting of each scripture and each biblical reference.
I can commensurate with the victim and see the gaslighting techniques that the abuser used. Similar techniques and mind games were used against me and abusers gather allies to do the same.
When I dealt with the fake Christian abuser who was a leader in a fake Christian organization. He justified the gaslighting and denial of my perceptions and got others to play along. He was able to isolate me from support which caused me to remain trapped and blinded. When I did reach out to another female in leadership I was further confused by her response to me so I stopped trying to get support from others. It just wasn’t there.
This is right out of the abusers handbook 101 class. But I gotta tell ya this letter and church response is truly advanced graduate level abuse and mind numbing confusion.
If anyone can help me with specific scriptural defenses and how to respond to the twisting of the scriptures used in the letter to condemn the victim I think that would help me.
I’m confused need help sorting thru each scripture reference used against victim in his letter. He makes it all sound so spiritual and justifiable —-but this is just what the wicked do. This is a preferred tactic to brainwash victims into submission.
Abusers do this for fun they love to cause confusion in their victims because it supports their delusional superiority against the victim. Being inferior in the abusers mind justifies the abuser in abusing his victim. In the abusers twisted and evil mind The victim deserves this treatment.
I look forward to reading more posts and insights from others. I’m still reeling!
Can others please share what their responses to each scripture reference and specific twisting of scriptures used in this letter? That’s where I get stuck because like most victims we care about following scripture because we have a conscience and want to please the lord.
Stormy- fundamentally the answer to your questions is to realize that all these perversions of Scripture are exposed as false because they are devoid of mercy. This pastor is a Pharisee who strains out a gnat while the abuse victim dies:
Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
Mat 23:24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
Mat 23:25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Mat 23:26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
Mat 23:27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Stormy, I have been where you (and many others like us) have been. What I have learned in the course of my own journey – above all – is the utmost importance of looking to the heart of God.
We love and serve a gracious, merciful and just God whose instruction is ALWAYS for the purpose of facilitating genuine relationship – both with Him and others in our our lives – not to accommodate wickedness, particularly within His sacred institution of marriage which, as we know, is to serve as a reflection of the love relationship between Christ and His bride, the church.
In holding fast to this foundational understanding, it becomes easier to parse through the legalist, control-based “Christian” mantras which almost always impose upon the innocent a weight of doubt, fear, confusion and yes, bondage, and none of those things represent the heart of God. And when all is said and done, as we walk in the knowledge of the truth, we are accountable first and foremost to Him, and He is our witness.
“…I am He who knows, and am a witness,” declares the LORD.’”
Blessings to you…
That “pastor” is on a power trip: “…when the church executes discipline it is as if Christ himself is carrying it out.” –I find this blasphemes! That “pastor” is abusive.
Thank you all for your supportive responses. I still find myself in the fog sometimes especially when the perpetrators use spiritual sounding words. The fog can be thick. I appreciate your help.
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.(captivity / bondage) Exodus 20,2 ESV
May God bless you on your further road to freedom – after all that you have been through.
Thank you for having the courage to share your story,
and thank you for all the good comments, especially the analysis of Alison and NoOneDownHere – and sweethonesty7:
Ex 20,3: You shall have no other gods before me.
(that includes all those who claim to speak in Christ’s name, all those who claim to have authority over your spirirual life, your conscience and your important life decisions.)
For Stormy’s good remark, this is my experience: It is no use to go into detail of scripture twisting, for these kind of pastors and their allies are heirs of the sofists and the pharisees combining both Greek and Jewish truth twisting. They are masters of it.
Even if you succeed in countering their contradictions, they will accuse you of having counter-arguments…
they call truth-tellers liars,
turn blessings into curse and curse into blessing,
deny the most obvious horrific truth right in front of it…
– crazy making (and crazy calling) and gaslighting –
…and if they do not find any better argument, it’s: you’re a woman, shut up.
RUN, do NOT even LISTEN to any of them, GET your KIDS SAFE from them.
Dear readers/commenters, this is just a cry from my hurting heart; from my personal experience of how much a false and loveless gospel messes with the mind and keeps in bondage.
Get your kids safe. Please let them know that our god is a God of love, mercy, grace, justice, righteousness, truth,… May every child and every abuse victim know and experience this deep in their heart, mind and soul.
Thank you for this wonderful blog, Pastor Crippen, we need to see truth so desperately.
May Christ shine His Love and Light upon you all,
Thanks so much C, Pastor Crippen, Cindy and everyone else who has commented. In debate class I was taught the best way to win the debate is to make note of all of your opponents arguments, then systematically one by one refute them with the truth. This was my default setting when I read that horrible letter. Refute the opponents arguments with truth. Sounds logical right??? When dealing with evil it’s not wise to engage.
Refuting lies with truth or sanity and common sense does not work when you interact with evil because evil is not based on truth. It also does not work in relationships with abusers because they are for war, we are for peace. You are all correct.
That’s why this blog is so helpful. It helps us all process what to do and how to handle evil. It’s the nuts and bolts of life. This conversation has helped me so much. Don’t engage —you will never be able to reason with fools.
I also learned this first hand with a female friend from a bible church. (Notorious for their male headship teaching). She wanted to argue with me about female submission. Women being lesser to men, women can’t speak in mixed company etc. This former friend was also a follower of Bill Gotthard. She took me to a Bill Gotthard conference in the 1980’s —This tells ya a lot!
Her purpose was to argue not discuss varied viewpoints or collaborate on what we could agree upon. There was no desire to find commonalities just wanted to win —to be right —wanted me to concede. She wanted to win. For her to win I had to lose. Just like your typical abuser and abuse apologist. They win —victims lose.
For that reason I am no longer friends with this person. Seriously she wanted to argue over the course of three days. She sent me page after page from her bible church of arguments supporting her viewpoint that women were less than men.
Thank you all for this helpful dialogue. Yes get away from them— run. There is no reasoning with a fool. These folks don’t want to see the truth. They want to win at all cost.